And here’s the rant all by its lonesome:
Not only did we get a mailbag crammed full of questions about the age of the earth, our two lead stories are also on that subject: Giving an age to Grand Canyon, and Pat Robertson doesn’t understand the Biblical view of the age of the earth – nor dinosaurs, which we expound upon in a new rant! This is Genesis Week.
And welcome to this episode of Genesis Week, the weekly program of creationary commentary on news, views and events pertaining to the origins controversy, made possible by the supporters of CORE Ottawa, Citizens for Origins Research and Education, and now carried on the Christianima network – christianima.com – Christian cinema at its finest. Bringing you the best in pirate broadcasting, we took over the old abandoned Camp Century, where we continue to bring you the information the anticreationists don’t want you to see or hear, and giving glory to our Creator while doing it. We believe God gave you an intelligently designed brain because He wants you to use it! Remember if you get lost in cyberspace, you can just punch in wazooloo.com or genesisweek.com and you can find us, and also subscribe to our youtube channel to get extras like CrEvo rants and full interviews with our guests. I’m your host, Ian Juby. [LEFT]
Flowers and Farley published a paper in Science magazine attempting to date Grand Canyon using He4/He3 thermochronometry – and concluding that Grand Canyon was cut some 70 million years ago. This is in stark contrast to the current thinking of those who embrace deep time, who would claim Grand Canyon was carved maybe 5 or 6 million years ago. Obviously, myself and many, many others don’t agree with any of those ages, because we would attest that the evidence shows it’s all quite young and can only be adequately explained within the context of a worldwide flood. In fact, Flowers and Farley even acknowledge the problems of interpreting Grand Canyon within deep time right in the abstract of their paper:
“Grand Canyon is one of the most dramatic features on Earth, yet when and why it was carved have been controversial for more than 150 years.”
Notice not just WHEN it was carved, by the WHY and HOW remained unresolved. The reasons for this are obvious, though you’ll never hear about it by just visiting Grand Canyon. If you go to the park, you are told over and over again that the mighty Colorado river carved this massive canyon. Okay, first of all, the river aint that mighty – especially when you compare the scale of the river to the canyon. No, we would contend that rather than the river causing the canyon, the canyon caused the river.
The Grand Canyon cuts through the Colorado uplift, which is a giant dome uplift. Well, picture a dome. The water can go AROUND the dome, but in this case, the water went right THROUGH the dome. The Colorado river would have to climb uphill some 3,000 feet in order to begin cutting the canyon! Millions of years does not fix this little problem, because millions of years does not change the laws of gravity. However, within the context of a global flood, the receding flood waters of the Noah’s flood were already above the mountains – so water will cut whatever is in its road.
Notice what Flowers said about the history of Grand Canyon:
“If history were as simple as the popular view, the canyon’s origins wouldn’t continue to be a topic of hot debate.”
Here at Genesis Week we hear it said allll the time that “The majority of scientists believe evolution” – as if that means it must be true. This is a logical falacy called Argumentum ad populum, and there are numerous problems with this thinking: For instance, ask any scientist and he will tell you his conclusions are TENTATIVE – they can be proven wrong at any moment. The majority of scientists believe evolution because they are told that the majority of scientists believe evolution! The majority also believes that Christopher Columbus sailed to the new world to prove that the earth was round and not flat, because everyone in his day believed the earth was flat. This is a patently false statement – everyone in Columbus’s day knew the earth was a sphere, and in fact this flat-earth myth was started by two anti-theists who were trying to attribute this ridiculous belief to Christians and Creationists in order to make them look back. This is a historical point, and the majority believes it, but that does not make it truth. So Flowers’ comment is quite appropriate for the subject at hand. If so many can be so wrong about historical truths, many scientists believing in deep time is utterly meaningless because deep time is not testable, repeatable, or verifiable – no one was there to record the events.
On that note, it’s interesting that several researchers are disagreeing with the conclusions of Flowers and Farley – and presenting what appears to be good reasons to doubt. David Coppedge once again gives an excellent analysis of the whole “age wars” as he calls it. David’s whole point was that we obviously can’t trust the deep time continually handed to us. Especially when they disagree with each other by so much – the dates suggested range from 5 to 70 million years – different by a factor of 14! So how do you know which age is right? Especially when those same people would also claim that the Redwall and Muav limestones in Grand Canyon were laid down over millions of years – yet they are interbedded – interfingered with each other! In order to lay them down in interfingered layers, they had to have been laid down at the same time, not millions of years apart. The fire engine red Hermit shale has cracks in it that have been filled in with the prominent bright white coconino sandstone. The sandstone was supposedly laid down millions of years after the Hermit shale – wait a minute – in the space of ONE year, you would fill those cracks in the hermit shale with debris and other sediments – instead, they are filled with pure coconino sandstone, indicating the two layers were laid down, geologically speaking, at the same time! You can see these cracks for yourself as you hike down the Bright Angel Trail. There’s much more I could point out, but we need to move along in this program; suffice it to say, there is every reason to question the claims of deep time put forward by those who believe in an old earth, and every reason to believe it was all laid down rapidly, in a world wide flood.
The 700 Club’s Pat Robertson was answering a question from a viewer named Michelle who was concerned because her teenage boys were questioning the Bible. As you all know, I am allll for questioning the Bible. In fact, the Bible itself tells us to “Test all things.” What things? ALL Things! Well, “All” would seem to include the Bible, would it not? I’m not afraid of asking the tough questions – including questions like “Is the Bible the word of God?” What about the Koran – is it the inspired word of God? What about the book of Mormon? Anybody can claim to have a book given to them by God – so how would you know if the book is, or is not, from God unless you ask questions about it? Unless you test it? Truth demands scrutiny while error begs for tolerance. Unfortunately, Robertson apparently did not think through the consequences of his response, when he said:
“You go back in time, you have carbon dating, all these things, and you have the carcasses of dinosaurs frozen in time…They are out there. And so there was a time when these giant raptors were on the Earth and it was before the time of the Bible. So don’t try to cover it up and make like everything was 6,000 years, that’s not the Bible.”
Well, actually, it IS there – where on earth do you think Ussher got his number from? Numerous other researchers have also come to similar conclusions – here’s Brock Lee’s analysis. Their reasoning is pretty simple: We have the genealogies from Christ right through to Adam and Eve, who Jesus himself said were created “In the beginning.” Furthermore, Mr. Robertson, apparently you are giving more authority to people – namely scientists, than God and His word! Further to that, you chose to give the scientists more authority than Ussher! If you’re give people more authority than God, why reject Ussher’s research and embrace atheistic scientists??? I’m bewildered by your comments!
Apparently Robertson never clued in to the fact that he just put millions of dead dinosaurs before the entrance of sin into the world: As we read in the Bible, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;” So, Mr. Robertson – was there death before Adam or not? Is the Bible true or not? Jesus was supposed to bear the consequences of our SINS, which is why he DIED on the cross – it was the consequence of SIN. You have just nullified the reason for Christ’s death on the Cross.
There are huge theological problems with what Robertson said, which, while he shouldn’t have ventured into scientific matters he knows nothing about, he certainly should have realized the theological consequences of what he was saying! Apparently Robertson is not aware of the testimony of Charles Templeton – a friend and former evangelist with Billy Graham. Templeton believed what the evolutionists told him. Templeton did not know the information I share with you on this program. So while Templeton had the wrong information, he did make a correct deduction: he correctly concluded that if we evolved and the earth was billions of years old, then Jesus was either mistaken or a liar – because Jesus believed the Genesis account of Creation. He spoke of the Genesis Account as literal history. If Jesus was either mistaken, or a liar, then that means HE WAS NOT THE SON OF GOD. As a consequence, Charles Templeton wound up rejecting the Christian faith, became an outspoken atheist, and penned his book “Farewell to God – my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith.”
So Mr. Robertson – this is not so much about lynching you as it is calling your attention to the very real dangers of what you said. You talked about Carbon 14 and dinosaurs in one sentence as if they both somehow proved a time much, much older than 6,000 years old – Mr. Robertson – apparently you haven’t watched this show where we’ve talked about carbon 14 IN dinosaur bones extensively. If those dinosaur bones are millions of years old, there should be NO carbon 14 in them – instead, Carbon 14 actually shows that the earth is only a few thousand years old – not billions.
Lastly, Mr. Robertson obviously has never been to a dinosaur excavation, or seen an actual dinosaur in place, because then he would know that dinosaurs provide POWERFUL evidence of the flood of Noah. Let’s review the matter in CrEvo Rant #17: What happened to the dinosaurs.
[CrEvo Rant 8:56]
So I present this information in hopes of enlightening both Mr. Robertson and his viewers that it is perfectly reasonable to accept that the fossil dinosaurs, rather than refuting the Bible, are actually BEST EXPLAINED by the history written in the Bible, and a young earth, and not deep time!
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Wahoo! Mail for me?
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The “Age of the Earth” show obviously struck a nerve, as it prompted an avalanche of feedback.
Ian, you have a great nack for putting something seemingly complicated into an easy to understand format, using plain logic and common sense. Another great video.
My goodness Ian, If I ever saw Evolution being pwned this is it, pwnage at its best.
the only thing that some one can say from here and on defending evolution is, you are simply a conspiracy theorist!
As much as I like the presenter, this is the most misguided, false-scientific video I’ve ever watched.
12:03 Why would dinosaurs living with men prevent the Earth from being older than 6000 years?
Excellent question; in short, according to evolution, dinosaurs were supposed to have gone extinct at least 60 million years before humans ever evolved, yet in the Bible, God created the sea and land creatures (such as the dinosaurs) on days 5 and 6 of creation week, with humans on day 6. Thus if we find evidence of humans and dinosaurs living together, it affirms the Biblical account of Creation and refutes evolution AND deep time.
One of my favourite youtube atheists commented on the erosion rates argument:
Your statements on erosion miss a myriad of points, including plate tectonics, new earth being formed, dynamic erosion speeds, ect.
And also YouTuber FactThis took issue with the erosion rates and we had a brief exchange where he provided further detailed argument. I have to edit it for brevity, but you can read his comments in their entirety on YouTube:
You ignore that a.) erosion rates are not uniform spatially and temporally, b.) tectonic forces raise the crust, acting as relief (furthermore, we can still measure mountains rising today), c.) all mountains did NOT form at the same time, and d) mass is cycled, and crust is often replenished. Your calculation was far too basic and ignored nearly all key geomorphological and tectonic principles.
On fossils and erosion: I’ll remind you that erosion rates are not uniform worldwide. You can’t take a blanket rate and apply it everywhere. In sedimentary basins for example, there is very little occurring. Many fossils across the globe have indeed been eroded, but those in areas that haven’t seen much erosion, or have yet to be reached, have not….
Cycling of rock mass occurs where mass is mobile, e.g. when it’s being eroded or corroded and deposited/accreted. Volumes of mass undergoing little to no erosion are essentially static and aren’t being cycled. In summary, we don’t see flattened continents because of spatial and temporal erosion incomformity and tectonic activity. This is all well-known.
I’d suggest thorough background reading before making your next video.
Let’s break this down for a moment, starting with “b.) tectonic forces raise the crust, acting as relief (furthermore, we can still measure mountains rising today), c) all mountains did NOT form at the same time.” Well, actually, your argument then is with geomorphology experts Ollier and Pain, not I – because they were the ones who provided some 20 reasons why ALL of the mountain ranges around the world rose up at the same time! And actually I discovered I made a BIG booboo in the Age of the earth show: I had said “Yet according to mountain experts Ollier and Payne, all the mountains around the world rose up at the same time, some 55 to 80 million years ago!” Ooops – they actually claimed it was the Pliocene-Pleistocene, or 11,700 years ago to 5.3 million years ago – within the context of an old earth and deep time, that was yesterday. If you are rejecting their conclusions, then I assume you must have an answer for each of their 20 reasons why they said what they did?
But that’s okay – if you wish to reject their ages, let’s use some other ages – we just covered a report in Science magazine where the authors claimed Grand Canyon was cut approximately to its present elevation 70 million years ago. Let’s use that age instead. You also claimed that erosion rates in the past were different than they are today – an excellent argument against uniformitarian ideas, and I couldn’t agree more – but wait a minute; while you acknowledged that the rates could be faster in the past, you stuck to the assumptions of SLOWER erosion rates in the past. Good and proper science asks the question “What was the erosion rate in the past?” I can provide numerous lines of evidence that erosion rates in the past were millions of times faster than they are today – water gaps and wind gaps, planation surfaces, quartzite boulders with percussion marks, giant wave ripples, etc… – geomorphological principles you apparently ignored! Grand Canyon had to have been cut in days to weeks – if you miraculously raise the Colorado river up 3,000 feet to crest the uplift, then you have a gigantic lake which now catastrophically dumps, rapidly cutting the canyon – probably in days to weeks. It’s pretty simple logic.
But nevertheless, I’ll oblige your figures. According to Judson and Ritter (http://www.uvm.edu/~watercmp/fc2009/CourseDocs/March25_Judson_1964.pdf), actual measured erosion rates were between 1.5 inches/thousand years and 6.5 inches/thousand years. Let’s be as favourable to deep time as possible, and go with a figure smaller than their smallest: let’s assume an erosion rate of 0.03 milimeters per year. That works out to about 2,100 meters of erosion in 70 million years at Grand Canyon – that’s about 7,000 feet of rocks eroded away in that time. You could say that accounts for the upper layers of the Grand Staircase which were eroded away – excellent! Why did it all erode away here, and not here? Aaaand – what about the Colorado River basin? Is the mighty Colorado river eroding more, or less than the rainfall on the land surface? Obviously more – but if we use our unrealistically small figures, in that same 70 million years, you would have eroded the bottom of Grand Canyon to 4,500 feet BELOW SEA LEVEL. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
The moment you start to invoke millions of years, you produce millions of problems.
you also tried to allege rock cycles – you want the continents going up and down, with erosion removing rock, and then subduction of the continents putting the eroded rocks back onto the continents, well wait, that doesn’t just destroy and recycle the rock, it would also destroy the fossils in the rock. Yet we find both allegedly old and young fossils within those rocks. As you can see, there are numerous, insurmountable problems you run into when trying to explain away rapid erosion rates.
I’d suggest thorough background reading before making your next comment.
There is so much more I want to discuss – but we are out of time, I’m your host, Ian Juby, thanks for joining me and I hope you’ll join me again next Genesis Week. You can send in your feedback in a number of ways. Remember those words of our Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ who said “I am the way, the truth, and the life – no man comes to the Father but through me.” See you next week.